1974 GOR Election
As promised, here is your opportunity to help out on a project. Remember: this thread is more about “process” than “results”.If you are unfamiliar with what I’m posting, I recommend you review my postings in the threads titled “A Different Methodology” and “Gallery Of Renown”.Rules/guidelines:
1. Rank the ten most worthy of HOF enshrinement in descending order. How you decide upon your ranking is immaterial. If you wish to be wedded to WAR or Win Shares or your gut reaction/opinions, that’s okay. But for this to work, it has to be your Top Ten IN ORDER, since this is not a yes/no vote, but rather an MVP ballot type vote.
2. You may vote for two additional players who are outside your Top Ten, an opportunity for someone who you feel deserves to remain in consideration in subsequent elections.
3. Feel free to “Private Message” me with your vote if you wish to remain anonymous from the filthy masses.
4. You have until midnight Friday to cast your vote. I will announce the results Saturday or Sunday.
5. Participation in this election in no way requires any future commitment on your part. Heck, I’m not sold on the idea as of yet, which is why I’m doing this thread in the first place.
6. For this election, write-ins are not allowed. This is complicated enough without that wrinkle.
Since this is not the “official” election, but rather a test run, please allow me to use the KISS principle.It’s a huge ballot, 43 names. I put anyone on it who 1) received at least one vote in the real 1973 HOF vote, and 2) retired after the 1968 season – the six year waiting period. I deleted 8 names from the original 51, guys I think likely would have been elected prior to 1974’s GOR election. Guys like Whitey Ford, Duke Snider, PeeWee Reese, Robin Roberts. I didn’t want the 1974 GOR election to be swamped with too many deserving guys, simply because the BBWAA was running a bit slow at that time. It’s still pretty crowded with HOFers and strong candidates, as you’ll momentarily see.I’m going to list them alphabetically, with the number of years on the ballot after their name.
Harry Breechen 15
Lew Burdette 2
Smoky Burgess 2
Phil Cavaretta 14
Rocky Colavito 1
Walker Cooper 12
Del Crandell 3
Al Dark 9
Carl Erskine 10
Dick Groat 2
Harvey Haddix 4
Gil Hodges 6
Elston Howard 1
Larry Jackson 1
George Kell 12
Ted Kluzsewski 8
Harvey Kuenn 3
Don Larsen 1
Vern Law 2
Bob Lemon 11
Mickey Mantle 1
Roger Maris 1
Eddie Mathews 1
Gil McDougald 9
Roy McMillan 3
Minnie Minoso 5
Don Newcombe 9
Hal Newhouser 14
Billy Pierce 5
Vic Raschi 14
Allie Reynolds 15
Bobby Richardson 3
Johnny Sain 14
Red Schoendienst 6
Bobby Shantz 5
Norm Siebern 1
Curt Simmons 2
Bill Skowron 2
Enos Slaughter10
Bobby Thomson 9
Mickey Vernon 9
Bill Virdon 1
Vic Wertz 6
It’s a long list, I know. When I do next week’s list probably half these guys will drop off. Only Breechen and Reynolds will automatically drop off. I mentioned that I’d do this: Here are the guys who will be added in the next two elections
1975’S: Gary Bell, Ken Boyer, Don Drysdale, Roy Face, Woodie Held, Dick Stuart, Tom Tresh, Bill White
1976’s: Jerry Adair, Bob Allison, Jim Davenport, Tito Francona, John Roseboro
Not a lot of no-brainer candidates either year.
This is supposed to be a fun exercise, so have fun with it !!!
Bob: I’ll go ahead and give my vote, since I can’t Private Message myself’.
1 Mantle
2. Mathews
3. Hodges
4. Maris
5. Minoso
6. NewhouserIf we were doing a yes/no vote, this is where I’d stop with the “yes”.7. Lemon
8. Reynolds
9. Slaughter
10. VernonWhen I made my ballot I started out by categorizing the players into 4 slots:
Yes, Maybe, Possibly, and No. I ended up with 17 guys in the first three slots, with 6 Yes, 7 Maybe and 4 Possibly. The three Maybes that didn’t make my Top Ten are Howard, McDougald and Pierce (The 4 Possiblys are Dark, Groat, Kuenn and Schoendienst). I get to choose 2 more, hoping that they stay on the ballot, and I’ll go with (being a Yankee fan in my youth)
McDougald and Howard
Hey, cut me some slack – at least I didn’t vote for Bobby Richardson as well. Or Skowron. Or Don Larsen
ventboys
Mickey Mantle 1
Eddie Mathews 1
Bob Lemon 11
Hal Newhouser 14
Enos Slaughter10
Roger Maris 1
Gil Hodges 6
Minnie Minoso 5
Billy Pierce 5
Elston Howard 1
This particular year doesn’t look like it has a ton of potential for controversy at the top, but once I got past the top 2 it got close in a hurry, and after the top 7 or 8 I almost felt like I was throwing darts. With no previous election (like we’ll have if we start at the beginning), there are no “momentum” candidates, so I didn’t factor in the number of years on the ballot. Had I done that, Maris might have dropped a couple of spots in favor of Hodges and Minoso.
I love the format, Bob. It made it easy to cut and paste the list, then work out my own list on my word processor.
- 01-16-2012 11:26 AMDHMMantle
Mathews
Maris
Hodges
Slaughter
Newhouser
Lemon
Minoso
Pierce
Newcombe - 01-16-2012 11:42 AM3for3Mantle
Mathews
Minoso
Howard
Maris
Newhouser
Lemon
Hodges
Newcombe
Slaughter5 minutes but I will take longer when the real balloting occurs - 01-16-2012 12:10 PMrgregory1956I was going to pop this into the initial post at the top, but I thought some may miss it. And I’m not sure I have the right answer. Input from you guys would be appreciated.I’m pretty sure that a 14-11-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 vote weight scale is the way to go, but should I add 3 points for each mention? I’m not sure it really matters in the long run, but these are things that need to be addressed before we actually do the whole shebang.
- 01-16-2012 01:24 PMbearbyz1. Mantle
2. Mathews
Your right ventboy it does get hard after this.
3. Minoso – consistent all star year after year.
4. Pierce –
5. Maris – I suprised myself.
6. Newhouser
7. Slaughter
8. Groat – winners seem to follow him around.
9. McDougald
10. LemonThe two I would like to keep on the ballot are Colavito and Hodges. I took about 30 to 40 minutes. - 01-16-2012 02:09 PMtigerlilyHere’s Win Share data for the position players;Smokey Burgess C
Career WS – 172
Top 3 Seasons -19, 17, 16
Top 5 Cons – 71
Per 162 – 16.48Phil Cavaretta 1B
Career -237
Top 3 – 30, 25, 25
Top 5 Cons – 114
Per 162 – 18.91Rocky Colavito RF
Career – 273
Top 3 – 33, 32, 29
Top 5 Cons – 133
Per 162 – 24.02Walker Cooper C
Career – 173
Top 3 – 23. 19, 18
Top 5 Cons – 82
Per 162 – 19.03Al Dark SS
Career – 226
Top 3 – 28, 27, 23
Top 5 Cons – 118
Per 162 – 20.03Dick Groat SS
Career – 225
Top 3 – 31, 25, 21
Top 5 Cons – 112
Per 162 – 18.90Gil Hodges
Career – 263
Top 3 – 29, 26, 25
Top 5 Cons – 129
Per 162 – 20.57Elston Howard C
Career – 203
Top 3 – 32, 29, 28
Top 5 Cons – 119
Per 162 – 20.49George Kell
Career – 229
Top 3 – 26, 24, 23
Top 5 Cons – 106
Per 162 – 20.67Ted Kluzsewski 1B
Career – 203
Top 3 – 33, 25, 24
Top 5 Cons – 125
Per 162 – 19.14Harvey Kuenn SS – OF
Career – 223
Top 3 – 26, 25, 22
Top 5 Cons – 109
Per 162 – 19.70Mickey Mantle CF
Career – 565
Top 3 – 51, 49, 48
Top 5 – 216
Per 162 – 38.12Roger Maris RF
Career – 224
Top 3 – 36, 31, 25
Top 5 Cons – 135
Per 162 – 24.80Eddie Mathews 3B
Career – 447
Top 3 – 38, 38, 36
Top 5 Cons – 167
Per 162 – 30.29Gil McDougald IF
Career – 194
Top 3 – 27, 27, 24
Top 5 – 116
Per 162 – 23.52Roy McMillan SS
Career – 172
Top 3 – 20, 17, 16
Top 5 Cons – 79
Per 162 – 13.31Minnie Minoso LF
Career – 283
Top 3 – 32, 29, 29
Top 5 Cons – 133
Per 162 – 24.98Bobby Richardson 2B
Career – 120
Top 3 – 22, 18, 15
Top 5 Cons – 81
Per 162 – 13.77Red Schoendienst 2B
Career – 262
Top 3 – 27, 26, 25
Top 5 Cons – 108
Per 162 – 19.15Norm Siebern LF
Career – 171
Top 3 – 27, 23, 21
Top 5 Cons – 109
Per 162 – 19.67Bill Skowron 1B
Career – 183
Top 3 – 24, 21, 17
Top 5 Cons – 85
Per 162 – 18.48Bobby Thomson CF
Career – 205
Top 3 – 26, 25, 25
Top 5 Cons – 112
Per 162 – 18.66Mickey Vernon 1B
Career – 296
Top 3 – 33, 29, 24
Top 5 Cons – 112
Per 162 – 19.91Bill Virdon
Career – 157
Top 3 – 21, 20, 16
Top 5 Cons – 82
Per 162 – 16.06Vic Wertz RF 1B
Career – 219
Top 3 – 26, 24, 23
Top 5 Cons – 100
Per 162 – 19.05 - 01-16-2012 03:13 PMtaosjohn1. Mantle
2. Mathews
3. Newhouser
4. Minoso
5. Lemon
6. Kell
7. Schoendienst
8. Slaughter
9. Hodges
10. PierceUnder the current “real world” rules I would stop at 5; I’m not really behind Kell or those below him. Actually I’m not really all that behind Lemon for that matter…I guess I’d ask for Reynolds and Kuenn to stick around, in case someone wants to and is able to make a case for them.Edit per request: Took me less than 45 minutes– hard to say exactly because I had a brief phone call and started a laundry while I was doing it. My guess is most years will be much easier… - 01-16-2012 05:37 PMshinsplintNot a lot of surprises here. Lots of sluggers, including Colavito who I think needs a little boost based on the voting so far…Mickey Mantle
Eddie Mathews
Minnie Minoso
Hal Newhouser
Rocky Colavito
Gil Hodges
Enos Slaughter
Billy Pierce
Bob Lemon
Roger MarisThe research for this took me about 45 minutes or so, I’d say. Obviously I have some familiarity with many of the names, so that helps. But it still takes some baseball-ref checking to determine if Billy Pierce is better than Allie Reynolds or if Kluszewski is better than George Kell (I voted for neither!) and so on. - 01-16-2012 05:40 PMmahdishain1. Mantle
2. Matthews
3. Minoso
4. Slaughter
5. Newhouser
6. Hodges
7. Colavito
8. Lemon
9. Burdette
10. PierceHaving never seen these players it is very difficult once you get past Mantle and Matthews. I am not sure I would put anyone else in. I will be more liberal once we get into the mid to late sixties and my youth. Harry Brecheen is misspelled in the candidates list. The forties were my father’s youth and he raised me a Cardinal fan.I spent approximately two hours browsing stats to go with my recollections of what I have read and been told about these players. - 01-16-2012 05:44 PMshinsplintQuote:Originally Posted by rgregory1956 I was going to pop this into the initial post at the top, but I thought some may miss it. And I’m not sure I have the right answer. Input from you guys would be appreciated.I’m pretty sure that a 14-11-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 vote weight scale is the way to go, but should I add 3 points for each mention? I’m not sure it really matters in the long run, but these are things that need to be addressed before we actually do the whole shebang.I know that kind of voting scale is popular, but I never really saw the logic in it. To me, there’s not necessarily more difference between the 1st and 2nd player (or 2nd and 3rd) than there is between the 5th and 6th, for example. So I don’t get the “bonus” points for the top places. But I’m ok with it…
- 01-16-2012 06:21 PMrgregory1956Quote:Originally Posted by shinsplint I know that kind of voting scale is popular, but I never really saw the logic in it. To me, there’s not necessarily more difference between the 1st and 2nd player (or 2nd and 3rd) than there is between the 5th and 6th, for example. So I don’t get the “bonus” points for the top places. But I’m ok with it…I know exactly what you mean. And I don’t totally disagree either. But it is a common and familiar method, to give extra weight to the top 2 choices. It’s why I originally thought to add three additional points for each time someone is on a ballot, to lessen a bit of the impact. It’s not going to matter much in 1974’s election, since I assume almost everyone will have Mantle and Mathews 1 and 2, but how one scores the ballots will often have an impact, and we (notice I didn’t say “I”) need to have an answer before we really begin the real elections.
- 01-16-2012 06:27 PMrgregory1956Quote:Originally Posted by mahdishain Harry Brecheen is misspelled in the candidates list. The forties were my father’s youth and he raised me a Cardinal fan.Semantics: it’s not misspelled; it’s mistyped.:D If I can spell Kluszewski and Schoendienst without looking them up, I know it’s Brecheen. I am both a lousy typist and a lousy proof-reader.But good catch, nonetheless
- 01-16-2012 09:32 PMevanecurbMantle
Mathews
Minoso
Newhouser
Pierce
Reynolds
Hodges
Cooper
Kell
Vernon - 01-17-2012 12:21 AMPatrick1. Mickey Mantle
2. Eddie Mathews
3. Minnie Minoso
4. Enos Slaughter
5. Billy Pierce
6. Bob Lemon
7. Gil Hodges
8. Larry Jackson
9. Rocky Colavito
10. Roger MarisHal Newhouser just missed my top 10 because two of his best seasons came during the weak war-time competition.It was a cool exercise. Hopefully, I’ll have time to do this when the real thing starts. - 01-17-2012 12:30 AMrgregory1956Could I ask a favor of you guys? Using your edit button, and using it on your ballot, would you let me know how long it took to do your ballot? It might end up being useless information, but I’d like to get a general feel for time and effort. Understanding of course, that the first few times would take longer. It’ll be much faster when we get the hang of it.
- 01-17-2012 07:40 AMtigerlilyHere’s my ballot;1. Mickey Mantle
2. Eddie Mathews
3, Minnie Minoso
4. Enos Slaughter
5. Hal Newhouser
6. Bob Lemon
7. Elston Howard
8. Rocky Colavito
9. Roger Maris
10. Gil HodgesThe HOF/non-HOF line for me is just below Lemon.There are five or seven pitchers on the list where the differences are really minor and it’s difficult to sort them in order with any certainity. Bob Lemon’s #1 comp is Hal Newhouser and his #3 comp is Allie Reynolds, while Hal Newhouser’s top comp is Lemon and his #4 comp is Billy Pierce. Pierce’s #4 comp is Curt Simmons and Simmons #2 comp is Larry Jackson.I probably spent an hour on the ballot. The time allotment will be much higher for era’s I know less about such as the 19th century. - 01-20-2012 04:41 AMrgregory1956This poll closes at midnight EST tonight.
- 01-20-2012 12:16 PMRobinsongMantle
Mathews
Minoso
Newhouser
Here I draw the line
Lemon
Colavito
Maris
Howard
Slaughter
Pierce - 01-20-2012 01:12 PMChitownRonBob,
This may sound silly, but where is the 1974 list of nominees? - 01-20-2012 01:38 PMrgregory1956Quote:Originally Posted by ChitownRon Bob,
This may sound silly, but where is the 1974 list of nominees?Not silly, just myopic. The list is on the very first post on this thread, after I long-windedly explained some things. Or if it’s still not clear: find my vote and then scroll up a few inches. - 01-20-2012 04:32 PMChitownRonMantle
Mathews
Minnoso
Pierce
Maris
Hodges
Colavito
Lemon
Slaughter
Newhouser - 01-20-2012 05:27 PMChitownRonBob,Thanks for getting this going. It has forced me to research some
players I have heard about in the past, as I had never took the time to really dig into their stories and stats. I have had a fun day doing just that today.Damn, I love baseball ! - 01-21-2012 04:40 AMrgregory1956I’ll just put the results of the poll here, instead of starting a new thread. There are enough GOR threads already, thank you very much. I used a 14-11-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 scoring system and did not add bonus points, as I originally thought I might. Thirteen people submitted ballots and all thirteen of us had Mantle #1 and Mathews #2, so there wasn’t a lot of drama as to who would get our nod for the two enshrinee positions. Thus (just for you Terry) Mantle and Mathews are the 1974 GOR recipients of….well, nothing; this was just a test run. The scoring is as follows: points, name and number of times listed on a ballot:182 Mickey Mantle 13
143 Eddie Mathews 13
*****************
91 Minnie Minoso 13
69 Hal Newhouser 12
51 Bob Lemon 12
51 Enos Slaughter 12
48 Gil Hodges 11
46 Roger Maris 10
36 Billy Pierce 10
24 Rocky Colavito 6
15 Elston Howard 4
8 Allie Reynolds 2
7 George Kell 2
4 Red Schoendienst 1
3 Don Newcombe 2
3 Dick Groat 1
3 Walker Cooper 1
3 Larry Jackson 1
2 Mickey Vernon 2
2 Gil McDougald 1
2 Lew Burdette 1
So all these guys will remain on the 1975 ballot that I will post Monday, plus those players who retired after (or in some cases, during) the ’69 season.Edit: Reynolds comes off the ballot, as he’s used up his 15-year allotment.
Bob Gregory's Gallery of Renown 